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Newbie questions

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Newbie questions

Postby twowheelsgood » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:42 pm

I have got my hands on my Giggle at last. :)

Made up with it in so many ways. It will be a couple of weeks to get paperwork and insurance sorted before I can take it on the road.

I have a couple of basic questions I would be greatfull if someone could advise on.

The bike had stood for 18 months so the battery was totally dead. It wouldn't start on kick either, I presume partly due to electric fuel pump.

This leads me to wonder about the value of a kickstart on a machine which requires electric to power the pump before starting.

As I found, it won't kick off with a totally dead battery but would when I put a partial charge in. Is this to be expected? That it can't be kickstarted of push started with a flat battery ?

Any recommendations for a suitable budget charger? I would prefer one which could recover from dead. I notice some of the cheaper ones can only maintain charge. I would hope not to need it too often so don't want to be spending too much on it.

Also, I will run as standard at first to gain a benchmark of performance. I will soon be wanting a variator upgrade though.

I will also remove the restrictor washer after a few miles. What is the current consensus on placing this behind the variator?

I have read almost every post on this and found them very interesting. Opinions have changed over time though so would be grateful for a bit of clarification.

I notice some variator kits only contain one half of the variator. The bit with the rollers. I am confused how this can offer any improvement as the geometry can't be different as it must match the original half still in use. (For example the often recommended Yamaha 3XY-E7620-01-00 Primary Sliding Sheave (3XYE76200100) would appear to be just half of the variator.)

It would seem that both halves are needed to alter the characteristics of the variable gearing?

Have I understood this correctly?

I would prefer a full kit with Dr Pulley sliders included.

In the light of the above, can anyone recommend a particular kit that would be available shipped to UK?
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby boxybrown » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:15 pm

One a battery is that low it's hard to bring them back. I use the battery tender to keep mine charged.

Remove the washer and put it on the backside of the variator, it needs it there to keep the drive face lined up with the rear pulley.

As far as variators go, stick with malossi. Offers the best performance. And dr pulley sliders are the way to go.

You are correct, you only get the variator, no drive face. I believe the dr pulley variator comes with a drive face. I bought the malossi drive face desperately for my C3, which matches to the bigger diameter of the variator and drive face angle. There are many reasons why one variator works differently over others. Diameter, face angle, ramp and for the weights, how long the tracks are and how close the weights rest to the center all factor in to how a variator performs. 1mm of travel can mean a couple MPH. Every little bit counts.
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby twowheelsgood » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:29 pm

Thanks boxy.

I must have misunderstood something. I was under the impression that the profile of the "cones" on the variator would be significant for tuning performance characteristics. Like the ramps of cams. But if only one side is changed, it must surely match the remaining standard part so no change in performance from the cone shape. Anyway, thats a technicality, it seems normal to just change one.

Would this be a good kit to go for? :-

http://www.psntuning.co.uk/scooter_part ... rt_id=2962

No mention of roller weight options I notice. Will the included ones be equivalent to standard? And no option for Dr Pulley sliders. I will email them for more info.
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby boxybrown » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:14 pm

In general, the belt will wear into the cvt setup you have. Which is why it sucks breaking in a new belt, it takes about 100 miles to fully wear in properly.



Running stock drive face with a different angle will influence it, and be something to tune around. It is ideal for the drive faces to match, but the variator is the driving force, and that ramp angle is a key factor. One reason why I am trying out the malossi drive face now, it has a larger diameter to match the variator and same angle. Another important thing there is that with a larger diameter variator you have more belt travel, which equals more top speed.


I've seen some "Frankenstein" cvt setups that run crazy. It's just finding what works for you.

That malossi is a great price. Same kit we get here. Definitely run the white spring, and don't run any washers they give you. It comes with 6 gram rollers, and dr pulley sliders are something you need to purchase separately. A good deal would be around £12 for a set of sliders.
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby twowheelsgood » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:13 pm

Thanks bb.

From general experience's here I think I would prefer lighter rollers. Aren't standard ones 6.5gm? Not much difference there.

I have emailed to ask if they offer any options on weights.

I think I might just experiment with roller weights for a while to get a feel before going for the variator. I like to notice each change, otherwise it gets hard to know exactly what is working and what is not.

Glad to take any advice from those who have been through it though. And reading most posts here, I notice many of you have. I don't think I will be chasing your speeds bb but I will be looking for good pulling up to 40 and good hillclimbing over speed.

I cant seem to find any supplier for Dr Pulley sliders / rollers. (Which should they be called?)

Any suggestions of a supplier who would post to UK?

EDIT...

Found this one and with 4gm weights.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dr-Pulley-4g-Performance-variator-Yamaha-4T-scooter-Vox-50cc-4T-Giggle-50-4T-/331037153465?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d135a18b9&vxp=mtr

Anyone any suggestions or preference between this and the Malossi one linked above?
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby baheno » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:05 pm

Depending on what weight you find best... I have 5.0g dr pulleys that i will not use... try the roller weights and if you like the lighter ones i will send you mine...

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Mixed weight rollers

Postby twowheelsgood » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:37 pm

Thanks baheno.

I might well take you up on that offer.

I currently have stock weights and some 4 gm ones. I have ordered a Malossi variator which I believe also comes with stock weights.

Your 5 gm's would give me quite some varied tuning options especialy if mixed weights are indeed effective.

I would exchange a set of stock weight rollers for your 5 gm if you are interested.

Re Mixing Roller Weights.

I have mentioned it in another post but I am still skeptical of the practice of running different weight rollers at the same time. Even with my limited understanding of physics I strongly suspect that only the heavier rollers will be doing the work.

Has anyone experimented by running with just three matched weights?

Could these mixed weight combinations actualy be effectively operating with only three rollers doing the work?

I see the significance of the weights having an impact in (at least) two distinct ways. The individual weight of the rollers will determine at what rpm and how fast they will try to move. Their collective weight will impact on the force applied via the ramps to the sliding face.

Can anyone explain how it is possible for an equal force (centrifugal (or fictitious force)) can simultaneously act identically on rollers of differing mass and result in them applying equal force to the ramps?
Last edited by twowheelsgood on Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Suspension questions

Postby twowheelsgood » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:11 pm

I have been looking around for a replacement rear shock.

Don't laugh but I intend to go camping touring on my Giggle.

I tested it out today with my delightfully ample partner on the back to get a feel of how it might cope down some bumpy back roads. She just thought I was taking her out for the afternoon so everyone was happy. :)

While impressed with the capabilities of the stock one I think something with a bit more damping and slightly stiffer springing would be a good idea. (The rear shock I mean, not my partner.)

My camping gear is relatively light (in comparison to my partner) being mostly from my cycle touring days.

Considering the weight it was carrying the little thing was incredible. Only one or two mph lost at the top and a bit more on the quite considerable hills. Apart from the occasional buildup of pogoing and occasional bottoming out on the worst potholes the suspension did very well. I have ridden many small to medium "proper" bikes that would have fared worse.

Can't seem to find a UK seller for the RFX gas shocks that seem popular on here. Postage from US makes them too expensive.

I was wondering if any euro giggle owners had tried this one or had any opinion :-

http://www.petrolscooter.co.uk/pit-bike ... quads.html

I am concerned by the seemingly high spring rating of 700 lb/in. It is listed as "a firm ride". I also found a Ruckus rider who said it was too hard. Does anyone know the rating of the stock spring for comparison. The same company do a shock that would fit but rated at 130 lb and soft. I don't think that would help.

I can't find anything in between. It would be a pity if it's too hard as it's a good price and looks to be two way adjustable. Pre load and rebound?

I think I will also stiffen up the front with some heavier oil as much of the extra weight will be on the front end. Any tips for emptying the fork oil out to replace with heavier without stripping down? I am considering suction??? Whatever happened to the simple expedient of drain plugs?
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby twowheelsgood » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:25 am

Fitted 5gm Dr Pulleys today.

Only 1 mph improvement on the clock with some better initial pull and smoother progression throughout.

Welcomed but far below expectations. My last hope to approach 40mph will be the Malossi variator when it arrives. I think it's hitting the rev limiter at 35 mph. Also awaiting one of those cheap digital tachos which might help, if it works.

Tried it with the restrictor washer out and with it behind the slider, no perceptible power difference. (although I remember + 1 mph when I initially put it behind with the 4gm weights). Such tiny increments too small to rely on perhaps. I will put the washer back behind the slider when I can be bothered. I think it makes sense re maintaining geometry.

Tried with and without the snorkel with no change but the awful noise. Put it straight back in!

Disappointed but not yet beaten. :)

Come on postman...
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Re: Newbie questions

Postby Ben L. » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:37 am

You gotta give those parts some time to break in. Give those sliders 100+ miles.
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